Yoshi and Trek Training Diary - November 2008

By Ellen Clary
(reverse date order)

Feedback is welcome:
Our You Tube Video Archive is here
For the human's blog see: The Non-Dog Blog
Non-Dog Blog Table of Contents

Sun Nov 30
Back from a weekend at Terri's moms.  The dogs do like going as she has carpet and they can race around - they don't like the gravel yard but they cope.

On Sat we saw the new Pixar movie Bolt and it's terrific.  Yoshi is such a Bolt wannabe.  To the point of assigning himself duties that he really doesn't need to do.  It really helped me understand him.

His sworn duty is to protect us from mysterious dogs approaching.  Oddly enough especially from dogs the look a lot like Bolt - maybe he works for the other side.  His M.O. is the citizen's arrest.  (Hasn't been allowed to do this for a long time but I'm glad i understand it now) meaning a bite and hold on the suspect until someone else pulls him off.

He's done enough herding training that he should how be able to control himself but twice during the weekend he very much wanted to Get That Dog.  To the point of leaving claw scratches on me, so he still doesn't completely trust my judgment.  I think this means that the CAT idea of making him stay in the situation probably isn't going to work as he truly feels threatened (unless I completely commit to it and CU works so much better for him.)

Leslie McDevitt just posted an amazing video of all 4 of her dogs out playing and a strange dog (with requisite clueless owner) approaching and her dogs focusing on her.  Astounding and a lot of people are saying:  geez I can't even get one dog to behave.

Here is the video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=byPqy3yzzXI&feature=channel

Post to cu_dogs

I just saw the movie Bolt (a great film - very recommended) and my dog 
is such a Bolt - sworn to protect even if no one needs it. Fortunately
he limits his citizen's arrest attempts to strange dogs and not humans.

I was just reviewing one of Leslie's video

YouTube - CU McDevitt Dogs Demo in a field


and I must admit to being pretty depressed about it. I simply have no
idea how to even get Yoshi even close to that point. We've hit a
plateau and I'm not sure how to proceed further.
We can do the relaxation protocol all inside, but outside he's not been
able to. I need to figure out a way come up with an intermediate step
and I'm not succeeding.

One thing that appears to help his self control issue is herding
training, but we have a ways to go in that.

Also I finally got to see It's Me or The Dog which features British Dog Trainer Victoria Stilwell.  I liked it very much and wrote another post about it:

So I finally got a chance to see Victoria Stilwell in action.  I liked 
what I saw.


It's funny that TV animal trainers have to have personalities that work
well on TV and I do find the prim and proper almost dominatrix look
that they've chose for her amusing.

I really like her approach of using and teaching basic techniques that
most dog owners can learn and she takes a lot of time to teach them.
This isn't some Dog Whisperer showing off doing things that only he
should try (and likely not even him). This is not dog training rocket
science at all, but it was positive reinforcement and some negative
punishment techniques (like turning your back to deny the dog access to
jumping up on your, combined with good management (walk that dog, block
the dog's access to the bed or room), and even with some clever shaping
thrown in to make door charging not rewardable.

Glad I have dog TV show that I can recommend to people.
Also saw a Dogs 101 episode and that was good too.

Another cool thing is that you can watch It's Me or The Dog online.  I just watched the 5 pugs episode.  the previous episodes I say were about Harley the Great Dane and another about a pit bull mix.

Mon Nov 24
Started out on a typical noon Yoshi walk.  5 minutes into the walk it became something else entirely:

[Note GGPWCF is Golden Gate Pembroke Welsh Corgi Fanciers]

Greetings GGPWCF,

Today I was just given the most extraordinary gift.  I was out walking Yoshi and a man who lived near me called out to us saying "A Corgi Person!" Thinking he just wanted to get a Corgi fix we went over to say hi.

While he didn't mind the Corgi fix he had been waiting for a Corgi person to appear (he knew there were some of us in the neighborhood).  His name is Ray and his mother was Anita Suderman who bred Corgi's in Templeton during the 70's.  She passed away and left a lot of Corgi books and magazines.  He debated giving them to the library, but knew that they wouldn't be that important to just anyone, and would be very important to the right people.  I mentioned that the Golden Gate Corgi club might be interested.  "Oh, she was a member."  "Oh really?"  Sure enough, he brought out two boxfuls of GGPWCF publications from the 70s.  It's really quite amazing and I'd love to find a way to get it to whoever in the club functions as the historian.  Would the Corgi Faire be a good time to drop it off or should I take it to someone's house?

The photos are a kick.

I have heard back from them and they are very interested and I will drop them off at the Corgi Faire on Dec 7th.  Looking again I see that there are Corgi League books from 1947(!), and some cool newspaper clippings including one that talks about the Corgi actor in Disneys Little Dog Lost movie, which I'll need to scan first before turning them over.

At least 6 of the kennels listed are still in existence and the old photos of people I know are just great.

Oh and Yoshi was fine on his walk and greeted Ray very nicely though he did sort of bark at Ray's, cat but chilled out.
In a couple of places on the walk, we were able to play LAT on squirrels that were on the ground.  Funny how different he is if they're not moving.

And it's so funny to compare how differently Yoshi and Trek respond to seeing a squirrel low in a tree in the yard.  Trek who has some predatory instinct, races right at the squirrel, where Yoshi runs off to try to out flank.  Such a herding boy.

Sat Nov 22
Yoshi Herding
What a great session for the Yosh-man.  He started off doing his usual charging around and me charging around after him.  HTrainer3 made some adjustments on the fly of what to work on.  We put a long line on him (no surprise there). she had us just working on stay as when I finally got him to down it was clear that he had enough self control to be able to do it, and she also convinced me to try a wand that had a rock filled water bottle on the end of it (noisy).  That did work and did not freak him out excessively (it did some, but not so much as to make him shut down and it did get his attention) and I was able to get him to stop and down/sit sometimes.

The stay work was perfect for him.  I had him in a sit on a long line and walked to the sheep (retaining the end of the long line).  He'd break and I'd reel him in.  I'd put him back and got a little further before he broke.  I reeled him in again.  The third time I got all the way to the end of the line and he was staying.  I returned to give him a treat.  I turned around and walked towards the sheep again and again reached the end of the line and he was still staying, I slowly put the line down on the ground and walked all the way to the sheep and walked back to him to tell him he was a good boy and gave him another goodie.  I then headed back to the sheep and HTrainer3 said I could release him this time.  That's huge progress for him.

I also did a lot of running since I'm supposed to stay in between him and the sheep.  So the deal is put him on a stay, walk to the sheep, release him and what ever direction he goes in to take the sheep in the other direction.  This cuts down on him running right at the sheep and getting better flanking.

When he was tired and moving more slowly we worked on release/walk up, down/sit, walk up, down/sit, walk up ... This is how you teach them to slow down.  Although the reality for him is that he'll slow down when he's tired, but then he's able to learn things.

An amusing moment was that no sooner did HTrainer3 say that we didn't have to worry about him taking down a sheep (which I knew, but it's nice to hear that she thinks so also - she apparently had some instinct test dogs this morning that were very excited about sheep for lunch which made things rather exciting she said), than Yoshi chomped on a sheep leg - smart ass - he stopped as soon as we yelled for him to knock it off, and the sheep seemed fine, albeit a little peeved at this little pipsqueak.  Oh, and as you might guess he continues to be entertaining to watch (so I'm told) even as we're slowly getting more control over him.

So he's going to keep coming here.  The ground is also softer so he doesn't tear pads which is really nice.  And oh darn, I have to keep going to the ocean to a town that I'd love to live in (or Half Moon Bay) if it wasn't so far away from work.

Fri Nov 21
Trek Agility
Before class we worked on a 3/4 height teeter.  No problem though I did mute it crashing back.  During class however I had Rachelle standing by to mute it and Trek saw her approach and decided that the teeter was scary again (honey it's the same dern teeter) and she wouldn't do it without a lot of encouragement.  Maybe I should stop putting pressure on her about it.  Also I notice that I'd been trying to keep the teeter quiet when she's on it and then getting far away before it crashed back.  She still hates that (drat).

She was also really sniffy looking for treats on the ground.  I'd nag her and it wouldn't help.  I think I'm just going to leave next time as that's the one thing that reliably works with her.

Some walks, not much drama, been busy finishing up a non dog video - more into in the Non-Dog Blog.

Mon Nov 17
I have this hare brained idea that might just work.  I've been trying to find areas where Yoshi can encounter other dogs and parallel walk with them but with them at a distance.  There is such a place but it's risky as escape routes are few.  Lots of people walk their dogs on the multiuse path right beside the beach.  It just occurred to me that I could just as easily walk Yoshi on the other side of the very wide street.

Downsides are many.  It's a very busy street and on the other side of the street there will be a lot of cross traffic.  It's so not a good place for a doggy temper tantrum and it has to be essential that he can't escape or he could be killed by a car.  There's days I have excellent control of him and I walk him on a martingale or a gentle leader with a fail safe (on either).  But what about other dogs that may be walking on that side as well?  That's going to be tricky and I'll have to drive past a few times to see how busy it is.  A sat photo is here.  Looking at the photo, another possibility is to just walk him on the path and if a log approaches step off the path.  Safer from a car point of view, but closer proximity to dogs and chaos and no parallel walking opportunities which is the level that he's at.  Maybe I can do it at a lower dog traffic time.

Sat Nov 15
Yoshi Herding at HRanch3 with HTrainer3  HRanch3 has a wider range of pen sizes and HTrainer3 is very happy to teach Corgis so it was a good match.  At first, he started out being a juvenile daemon which landed him in the small pen, then he seemed to settle down some and HTrainer3 could better see what his skills were and where he needed work (The Stay.)  Once he was tired and the sheep were across the pen, I was able to demonstrate his remote down and sit.

HTrainer3 said that he needed to learn to work further away from the sheep (the downside of doing all that work in the round pen) and we talked about my being in between him and the sheep and encouraging him to flank out instead of charing the sheep.  He does have a good outrun but then after he rounds them up he then wants to charge at them (which scatters them so he can gather them up again.  I need to draw a diagram of this as it was really helpful.  After the outrun and when he turns to me, he should down, which interrupts the charging.

She stayed in the pen and kept Yoshi from charging the stock which helped immensely.

Later at a party I was talking to a co-worker whose wife does agility.  He noticed at a trial that Greg Lougainis' partner has a shirt that says:
Note the first column.  Terri and my Co-worker were both thinking they needed one.

Fri Nov 14
Trek agility I can't keep her off the teeter now.  Cool - though it was less than half height.  We worked on game skills tonight - snooker and gamblers.

Thu Nov 13
Yoshi noon walk.  No dogs but he worried about a toddler on a Big Wheel being pushed by an adult with a pole like thing (sort of dog like in a way :).  i held him by the collar so he could get a look at it and after some grousing, relented, and no longer reacted to it. 

The pull on the leash is definitely a cue that he's taught himself to look at me (and I often reward it.)  If there's something that's stressing him he doesn't respond right off but it's something we can use.

Wed Nov 12
Yoshi noon walk.  Uneventful.
Trek eve. walk.  Took the same path as previous walk with her and right around the same place (Pearl and almost to Santa Clara) she again had her ears up and seems hyperalert and walking faster though less so.  In a block her stress level went down.  Interesting.

Tues Nov 11
Noon Yoshi walk - no dogs.  I'm noticing that he looks at me when I tighten the leash.  If he starts stressing and standing on his toes I can tighten the leash and I can get his attention back.  That's nice - I reward him for it too.

Mon Nov 10
Noon Trek walk.  We walked in the other direction than we usually do so we go by the school first.  There weren't a lot of kids there, so she seemed ok.  What's odd is that in the next block she started trying to drag me.  I couldn't see or hear anything, but she sure could.  Dern dog hearing.  I'll have to continue to walk her that way to see if it's consistent.

Sun Nov 9
Terri and I were at a political rally (see the nondogblog if you're curious) in Sacramento so the dogs just hung out at home and Mark and Jan were nice enough to let them out to pee.

Sat Nov 8
Trek Bayteam CPE Santa Rosa

I am so proud of Trek. For the afternoon, the teeters appeared on the courses and the sound of the teeters echoed loudly under the arena cover, and she was terrified and basically had an emotional meltdown (glad we don't live around thunderstorms), and despite being given lots of time away from the ring she could not cope running with the sound around and I had to carry her shaking off the jackpot course and straight into Suzanne Deghi's Massage Tent for some stress relieving accupressure and back to the car crate to chill out for 2+ hours.

Suzanne said to consider scratching her from her last run, but it was her standard run and I didn't want to give up on it just then.  We were the last class of the day and luck was with us that the other ring had finished so no teeters.  As the class started, I brought her near the ring and she started to shake.  We found partial refuge in the equipment trailer of all places where she could still hear the goings on but it was muted.  After some minutes and some accupressure and treats and just letting her come to terms with the dampened echoing she started to relax a little.  I decided to give the run a try, while concentrating on keeping stress out of my voice and not worry about speed.

She did it.  Flawlessly.  No charging past obstacles.  No zooming around.  No jumping off of contact obstacles or concluding that the tunnel was too scary.  She Q'd, got 2nd, and now has her CL-1 title.  Such a brave doggy.

Though we are going to wait a bit on  competing in covered arenas which puts a bit of the kabosh on more winter trialing save for NADAC at Wag.  Oh well.  Goodies will be at class on Friday.

She also Q'd twice in the morning in Jumpers and Snooker (level 2) but those were more erratic with her running by jumps and me screwing her up by over handling. 

I think the lesson today is that she does better the more relaxed I am.  It's a bummer in a way as I'd like to use my voice to build excitment to start to work on speed, but it just makes her stressed and erratic, so it's zen handling for us and we'll have to worry about speed later.

After I've had sometime to think about it, I'm realizing that what she has is a version of Thunderstorm Phobia, which I've never noticed as well we don't have violent thunderstorms here.  Funny though she doesn't react to fireworks, but I manage that exposure pretty carefully and I made a video of it here:


It appears the issue is the precussive feel of booming sounds.

Fri Nov 7
[noon] Yoshi walk.
I was interested in perhaps trying some modified CAT technique (which I'll describe later) with Yoshi and today an opportunity presented itself.  Thing is Yoshi's generally pretty good but still has that immediate lunge emotional response that I've gotten a fair bit of control over using desensitization and classical conditioning (mainlining treats).  but we seem to have hit a plateau of not getting a reaction at street width plus one house width, but anything closer gets an initial reaction.  His herbal supplements and his training have helped him to have a quick recovery.  We're to the point of him reacting, my catching him by pulling (not a jerk) back on the leash and saying something like firm but neutral "no" or "hey" or "leave it."  He recovers and starts offering rewardable behaviors.  The past few months I've never let him get to that point by blocking him and shoving cream cheese in his face.  That gets us through the encounter but it hasn't been as successful as I'd like at really changing his emotional state.  He'll eat, but the other dog still stresses him.

CAT takes a different approach of using relief of the pressure of the other dog leaving as a reward.  As long as your dog is still reacting, the the other dog stays around.  As soon as your dog lets go of the reactions, the other dog leaves.  CAT uses no rewards, but my experience is that if your dog is offering rewardable behaviors then s/he gets rewarded.  Since I have good control of Yoshi these days we can work through an incredible amount of drama without the owner of the other dog even being aware they're taking part in a dog training experiment and we keep enough distance that the other dog feels ok.

So after playing LAT on some cats we were walking down Central (big wide street), and I see a person across the street walking a Min-Pin in the distance.  As they get with in a 1/2 block I stop Yoshi and start rewarding him for sitting in front of me giving me attention.  As the other dog gets within 3 car lengths I turn Yoshi so he can see the dog.  He starts to react and I shove treats in his face to stop the reaction and get his attention.  We then have turned around and we parallel walk with the other dog and I have him heel.  He alternates  rapidly between starting to lunge, which I interrupt with collar pressure and "leave it" and offering heeling with good attention (which I reward).  1/2 a block passes and he's still  stressed and trying to at least stare (precurser to a lunge), and then immediately offer attention.

What I'm looking for is him relaxing around the other dog.  The important (critical) part of CAT is the dog's barking, lunging, and general carrying does not make the other dog go away.  The only thing that works is your dog relaxing.

Another 1/2 block passes, I know he can't keep this up and I see him stop leaning forward so much and standing on his toes.  Another 1/4 of a block and he's starting to walk like a normal dog so at the next cross street we turn off.  This was successful and turned out much better than I expected.  One reason I don't normally do CAT is that it takes a lot of prep and usually takes people to help you as most normal dog owners are going to want to keep their dogs away from a reactive dog.  It's only working for us because I can hide the fact that Yoshi is reactive.

This is sort of similar to our original "follow that dog" game where I discovered that after a dog has passed then Yoshi is fine with following them, which helped me to figure out that it's dog's approaching that are his trigger.

Ok so what is CAT?  In short CAT is Constructional Aggression Treatment and is a technique developed by Jesús Rosales-Ruiz, PhD & Kellie Snider.  Rosales-Ruiz is on the Clicker Expo faculty and is a very well respected behaviorist (Here's another ref and you can order the DVD here or here).  Because I have attended Clicker Expo I am on the clickerexpo list and I get their email.  I have been collecting it for 2 years and while it's not Rosales common list it is a place were he and other faculty members debate the merits of one technique vs another.  It is based on Negative Reinforcement, which is not a common area that clicker trainers use so we're all in unfamiliar territory.  Negative Reinforcement is the removal of something unpleasant as a reward.  For years the most common example was an earpinch, which was appalling enough of an example that several of us didn't think any further about it (I used to describe it as "The beatings till continue until moral improves."  Years later I realized that a Snooze Button is a perfect example.

So it took some outside the box thinking by Rosales that there are more human versions of the same thing.  Unpleasant things (to dogs) happen all the time and they react in not always the best of ways to make it go away. Rosales' technique is have the reactive dog leashed to a person, another person with a steady dog appears at a set distance away.  If the reactive dog reacts the neutral dog stops but does not leave.  The reactive dog continues to do what ever and his/her handler just stands there.  Treats are not involved.  When Fiesty Fydeau (I stole that term from Jean McDonald - though it's my spelling) stops, the other dog leaves as a reward.  This is the really important part.  The reactive dog has to try his/her usual repetoir of behaviors and they can't be allowed to work.  The only thing that works to make the dog go away is calm behavior.  Eventually (and surprisingly quickly) the aggressive dog stops posturing and the test dog can approach more closely without a reaction.

Now I filed that away as interesting, but not very practical (it's trainer intensive and pretty stressful on all concerned if you have a truly scary aggressive dog), but Lori showed me a Whole Dog Journal article that Pat Miller wrote about it and I remembered that Clicker Expo was talking about it so I dug it up and showed it to her.  I also remembered that CAT came up on the CU_Dogs from time to time and Leslie was of the opinion that CU and CAT don't mix.

Lori is wondering if there actually is a way to combine them and add well trained rewardable behaviors like obedience exercises.  She may be on to something.  If a [trained] dog is willing to chill out and work in the presence of another dog that should be rewardable.  The work can be CU exercises or obedience exercises or tricks or anything else besides lunging and barking.

Now will this work with Yoshi?  Maybe.  He goes to Oakland Dog Training Club and nothing he does makes those dogs go away, so he's pretty relaxed there, except for dogs entering (the big bugaboo).  He so wants to scream at the entering dog, so CAT may not change that.  His being allowed to rant is enough of a stress relief that he may do that even if it gets him no reward at all.  These days he knows what is expected of him so I may not need to shove cream cheese in his face (CU approach - there's a scary dog - have a cookie - a useful skill that he has), but instead interrupt and get his head back in the game.  The subtext is pretty funny:  THERE'S A DOG AAAA! <pull on leash>  Oh sorry, what were we doing? Oh, heeling. Ok, I can do that. THERE'S A DOG AAAAA! [and repeat and repeat]  That combined with herbal calming stuff may just do it.

[Trek Agility Class]

Thu Nov 6
Been so hard to concentrate on dog training with such politial goings on, but it really is a welcome respite.
Trek Walk.  uneventful save for a scary street sweeper that she mostly hung in there are ate treats while it passed but she so wanted to leave.
Yoshi.  Experimenting with using "Relax" as a conditioned response all by itself (usually I'm massaging him when I say it.)  This morning an outside dog was barking and I repeatedly told him to Relax.  It took a lot of reps but it did work.  It happened again at night and again it took a lot of reps but ultimately worked, the outide dog barked again and he didn't respond.
Both.  Working on the Relaxation Protocol on mats.  Terri had the idea of using some of our DVDs that have the dogs barking.  They usually bark when they hear dogs barking (even themselves - haven't taught them about recordings.)  So we had them on mats with me treating them and played the DVD at low volume.  They didn't respond at all to the barking, just wanted their treats.  Turned up the volume.  Same thing.  Started moving around a little.  Same Thing.  Turned it up louder, moved around some.  They stayed put.  Wow, what good dogs.  I didn't push it to knocking as I wanted them to be successful and together they're worse than when together.  Save they're really observant when one gets a treat and the other doesn't - like when one is sitting up and the other is laying down.

Wed Nov 5
Took Yoshi on a walk at noon.  We were walking down Central and he tensed and started to lunge but I grabbed him.  Looking up to see what was coming I realized nothing was coming at all.  What was going on is two bully breed dogs were tethered to the fence two houses away while their owners worked in the yard.  Seeing Yoshi's distress, one owner came over to assure me that they were friendly and tethered.  i thanked him but said that Yoshi was afraid of them and I'd like to let him have some space.  Yoshi had settled and was starting to play LAT so we did that for a little while and then crossed the street to relieve the pressure as a reward.

Tue Nov 4
The dogs survived an election night party (Yoshi had his valerian herbal medicine).  I have very mixed feelings.  See the Non-Dog Blog.

Sun Nov 2
Yoshi Walk.  He did quite well except for one incident that took me totally by surprise.  We were praticing whiplash turns and suddenly he saw something and immediately tried to lunge past me.  Spinning around I see two dogs running on the street.  They're attached to bike with human riders on them.  Yeesh, I'd bark too.  I started to feed him to settle him down but after one treat I decided that I didn't like the timing of it (looked too much like a reward to me) so I just held him till he called down.  The rest of the walk was uneventful and he is paying exxcellent attention to me, and rewarded often for it.  Worked a little on the treat tossing on the ground as a reward for attention.  I go through a lot more treats this way and am still not convinced it will help but it's worth trying.

Gail and Arlene's Not At [USDAA] Nationals Party.  Trek got to go and despite throwing up later from eating too many of the wild strawberries that were on the ground there, we all had a very nice time.  We watched the live feed on the internet so didn't feel quite so left out. Trek didn't do as much running around as I would have liked, but did get out some.  She had a grand time commandeering Gail's lap for a while.  I like that she was not a shrinking violet.  Her shrinking violet days may be over.  Unless there is a passel of screaming children nearby, though even that may be improving.

Sat Nov 1
Did some Relaxation Protocol with Trek.  Also did some more wobble board work.

Archive - Go to:

Yoshi and Trek Training Diary - Oct 2008
Yoshi and Trek Training Diary - Sep 2008
Yoshi and Trek Training Diary - Aug 2008
Yoshi and Trek Training Diary - Jul 2008
Yoshi and Trek Training Diary - Jun 2008
Yoshi and Trek Training Diary - May 2008
Yoshi and Trek Training Diary - Apr 2008
Yoshi and Trek Training Diary - Mar 2008
Yoshi and Trek Training Diary - Feb 2008
Yoshi and Trek Training Diary - Jan 2008

Yoshi and Trek Training Diary - Dec 2007
Yoshi and Trek Training Diary - Nov 2007
Yoshi and Trek Training Diary - Oct 2007
Yoshi and Trek Training Diary - Sep 2007
Yoshi and Trek Training Diary - Aug 2007
Yoshi and Trek Training Diary - Jul 2007
Yoshi and Trek Training Diary - Jun 2007
Yoshi and Trek Training Diary - May 2007
Yoshi and Trek Training Diary - Apr 2007
Yoshi and Trek Training Diary - Mar 2007
Yoshi and Trek Training Diary - Feb 2007
Yoshi and Trek Training Diary - Jan 2007

Yoshi Training Diary - Dec 2006
Yoshi Training Diary - Nov 2006
Yoshi Training Diary - Oct 2006
Yoshi Training Diary - Sep 2006
Yoshi Training Diary - Aug 2006
Yoshi Training Diary - July 2006
Yoshi Training Diary - June 2006
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Yoshi Training Diary - Dec 2005
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Yoshi Training Diary - Jan  2005

Yoshi Training Diary - Dec 2004
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